political science job rumors

Things may get weird. Trying to fix the problems.

1. bocephus
   Unregistered

   there are widely accepted norms of professional behavior, whether or not you've encountered them from your little academic cubby.

   if you ever find yourself in the real world, you'll find that it runs on courtesy. perhaps you've been too busy modeling collective action to notice.

   to the person who needs a "program" to send a "form," try bcc 2.0. it's a radical concept, dating roughly to the invention of pencil and paper. you'll also find it in your email editor. you'd be amazed at how many addresses you can put in there.

   Posted 2 years ago #

2. anon
   Unregistered

   ^Hmm no. To use bcc 2.0 you need the email addresses. If you are in a school that gets the applications in hard form, someone has to type up all the emails up. If you have an online system, that doesn't mean you can pull the emails from the system. Often you have to go into each and every file and copy paste the email it into your email. Hence why the person said you need a program that is designed to let you pull the emails off easily. And if you have an administrator who is incompetent (most depts do) or a senior person heading the SC then it's even less likely they will figure out how to do it. So I hate to break it to you, but a lot of the time it's very time consuming and a pain. The norms of courtesy require that we contact people whom we've interviewed, not every snowflake who applied for the job.

   Posted 2 years ago #

3. Suffering
   Unregistered

   OP here. Just to be clear: I was interviewed.

   Posted 2 years ago #

4. lala
   Unregistered

   the "real world" runs on courtesy? hahahahahahaha, are you still living off your rich parents?

   Posted 2 years ago #

5. anon
   Unregistered

   "OP here. Just to be clear: I was interviewed."

   Yes OP, and I think that the SC owes you a phone call. Anyone who can't be bothered to call or email the short list of candidates they have interviewed is unprofessional. However, once you've been interviewed it is perfectly reasonable for you to call and find out what is going on. You're an adult, and you don't need to sit by the phone eating your finger nails. Pick up the phone or send an email. Often there are many reasons why they haven't called you. They may not be calling you in case their top three people fall through. Perhaps they only liked one person, made and offer, and if that gets turned down they will go back into that short list. It happens. In some places they are not allowed to contact you until a formal offer is accepted. In any case, sending a short email to find out what the status is once you've had at least a phone interview is perfectly fine.

   Posted 2 years ago #

6. Aa
   Unregistered

   Let's remind ourselves of the context here--OP said that they had been contacted and told that the SC would be "getting back to them". OP then complained that he/she did not get contacted again on a timely basis. This morphed into a claim that contacting candidates takes only seconds and that in the "real world" job applicants are treated with much more courtesy than in academia.

   I don't buy these claims.

   I don't know anyone who thinks candidates who have been interviewed should bit be kept informed. It had happened to me, multiple times, even on senior searches, and I have friends who it had happened to. It usually indicates a less tham fully functional department.

   Posted 2 years ago #

7. Bryan
   Unregistered

   The fact that OP was interviewed makes a huge difference for the folks who are saying "It takes forever to find all of those e-mail addresses." Presumably they've e-mailed the OP at some point (perhaps to tell him that they'd be in touch like he says) already and have his e-mail address relatively accessible. If not, how long does it take to Google 4-5 people that you've interviewed and find their e-mails?

   It annoyed me when it didn't happen when I was on the market, but looking back I wish I would have and could have taken a more relaxed attitude toward the job search. You will either get the offer or not, and the little details like whether they contacted you don't matter in the long run. I understand how hard it is to feel that way when you're on the job market, but it's reality. Some people are rude. Some people want to avoid confrontation. Some people are busy. Some people forget.

   Posted 2 years ago #

8. bianchi77
   .edu verified member

   If you interviewed on campus, you can certainly contact them. You don't have to be passive.

   Posted 2 years ago #

9. anon2
   Unregistered

   In a few cases, even contacting the SC after interviewing doesn't work. I've had two flyouts where not only did no one ever contact me after the visit, they wouldn't respond when I contacted them. In one case, I got an offer from another school and let the chair know that in an email and then a voice mail a month after my flyout, asking if he could give me a status update since I really would have prefered school #1. Never replied, never even sent a form letter rejection.

   Posted 2 years ago #

10. anon
    Unregistered

    ^ Yes, it happens, but it's very rare. Let's face it most SCs do contact you after you've had a fly out. If they don't there is some serious dysfunction going on. Now let's not act like this is the norm. Most people who've had an interview are contacted by the SCs, so why is everyone so **** because in a couple of cases it didn't happen? Seems like a lot of thread for a couple outliers.

    Posted 2 years ago #

11. eff
    Unregistered

    If a real poll were taken on this, we might find out that SCs or decision-makers aren't responsible and don't infom those they flew out. It certainly happened to me as well, although I did get a form letter months later.

    I wonder if there is a difference between R1s, R2s and LACs in this regard

    Posted 2 years ago #

12. mikeM
    Unregistered

    ABD, you don't have a clue about professionalism. Too early in your career, mate.

    Posted 2 years ago #

13. bianchi77
    .edu verified member

    It happens more often than you'd like to think. If you interviewed on campus, you deserve a notice. Otherwise, you don't. But if they can't bother to notify you after a flyout, why are you bothered? It doesn't change the fact you didn't get the job, but now you know what department to avoid in the future (I once had an interview, then never heard back, even after I notified them I had another offer; to this day I warn all my students/colleagues about that place). There are worse things than being unemployed. It may not seem like it now, but in the long run, being trapped in a disfunctional department is hsrder to escape than unemployment.

    Posted 2 years ago #

14. Jimmy Kimmy
    Unregistered

    ^Working at a department which would not give you a call if you didn't get an offer is worse than being unemployed? Yeah, ok.

    Posted 2 years ago #

15. bianchi77
    .edu verified member

    said:
    ^Working at a department which would not give you a call if you didn't get an offer is worse than being unemployed? Yeah, ok.

    Yes, in the long run it most likely is. Being at a dysfunctional department (I take that kind of behavior as a sign of dysfunctionality) that is not highly ranked (an important caveat) is bad, because the likelihood of moving out is weak. If you think courtesy matters, this is a good sign of how they will treat you once you arrive.

    And I'm not sure where all the angst about "unemployment" is on this board. You do realize there are others things you can do with a PhD (and often making more money) than being a college professor, right?

    This is also a good example of why retaining the status of ABD until you get a job is critical. So long as you are an ABD, the clock isn't running on your expiration date on the shelf (so to speak).

    Posted 2 years ago #

16. Jimmy Kimmy
    Unregistered

    Really? A 15 year ABD wouldn't look a tad stale?

    Do you think before you post?

    Posted 2 years ago #

17. The DA
    Unregistered

    This is also a good example of why retaining the status of ABD until you get a job is critical. So long as you are an ABD, the clock isn't running on your expiration date on the shelf (so to speak).

    Bianchi's posted this before, and I've issued this warning before, but because that's such dangerous advice, I'm going to follow up again. There are some departments, including my own (which is, while not particularly prestigious or well known, really a pretty good job) where those who have not defended at the time of application will not be considered unless the pool of PhDs in unusually thin. The thinking, amongst my colleagues, is "why risk hiring someone who can't/won't finish, when there are plenty of good applicants we won't have to worry about?" I don't entirely agree with this--all else being equal, I'd prefer candidate with PhD in hand, vs. someone telling me "expected May 2011", but it wouldn't necessarily be a huge factor.

    I should also note that the year I got my PhD, my file didn't approve in any other appreciable way, and I wasn't doing anything special that year (just adjuncting at my PhD institution and a local community college), but I went from 0 interviews to 4.

    Posted 2 years ago #

18. flyoverprof
    .edu verified member

    I would not read too much into whether a department is "disfunctional" based on a timely callback. In my department at least, searches are fairly decentralized (the committee runs the search) and the committee chairs are responsible for these types of communications. Out of 15 or so tenured faculty members, well over half have chaired search committees. And sure, one or two chairs over the years have dropped the ball on this. I also recall one year a staff member neglected to send out formal letters until the following summer despite the letter and recipient list being finalized in January. These things happen (thankfully not very often) but it hardly makes us disfunctional.

    On the ABD thing, we can all tell the difference between the ABD who hangs on a year to maintain funding and institutional affiliation and those who spend too long in grad school. The problem with maintaining ABD status too long when the dissertation is largely complete is that in itself sends a strong market signal.

    Posted 2 years ago #

19. bianchi77
    .edu verified member

    A few things:

    Yes, a 15 year ABD is a sign of serious trouble. I clearly didn't mean to stay ABD forever. But it's not a bad idea to go on the market the first time as an ABD (assuming you really believe you can defend within a few months), then holding off on the defense if you don't get an offer. The following year, you can go on the market with the degree "in hand" and see if that makes a difference. If you really were close to finishing, then you should have at least one publication from your dissertation (or related work) ready by the time you go on the market the second time.

    Yes, I suppose any job is better than no job. But ... since you clearly didn't get the job, why not at least chalk it up to a dysfunctional department. But, in all seriousness, if the department can't respond to you after you got an interview -- and you let them know that you have another offer -- there is something seriously wrong with that department.

    The bottom line is that by now (early January), any one on the market should seriously start making the rounds in non-academic job applications (government, NGO, intelligence, analyst, etc). There's a vast world out there beyond academia that will hire PhDs in social sciences. Stressing out about the academic job market without a plan B is not constructive.

    I can also appreciate flyoverprof's comments. But -- and, again, focusing on people who got on campus interviews -- there is something wrong if those who did get flown out weren't contacted. Here's my explanation based on my experience on search committees: When we bring in 3-4 candidates for job talks, we are as much trying to court them as they are trying to convince us to hire them. Even after we make our decision, we hope the other 2-3 candidate will leave with a positive image of our department. It's part of the long term strategy of networking and building a reputation. We realize that there's a good chance that anyone we bring in to interview may likely end up elsewhere (either because we passed on them, or they turned us down). We hope they take their impression of us to their future colleagues.

    My sense from departments that don't bother with these kinds of courtesies is that they don't really care about the academic world beyond their campus. That may be fine for a Harvard or Yale, but not for an unranked school. I take it as a sign that they have little interest in building a reputation or networking with other scholars over the long term. And blaming the oversight on a decentralized search process doesn't sway me. I could take that as a sign that the department (as a whole) isn't all that interested in their searches and that at least a few people in the department in particular don't take their service obligations seriously.

    But to get back to the main point by the OP: If they didn't contact you, they don't want to hire you. Plain and simple. How you interpret that is up to you, I suppose.

    Posted 2 years ago #

20. Jimmy Kimmy
    Unregistered

    ^Shorter version: ignore Bianchi's earlier advice.

    Seriously man, you don't have to respond to every post.

    Posted 2 years ago #

21. phdspook
    Unregistered

    >(government, NGO, intelligence, analyst, etc). There's a vast world out there beyond academia that will hire PhDs in social sciences

    Don't assume that's still true. I'm a social science PhD working for Uncle Sam, and many of the traditional places for poli-sci doctorates are under formal hiring freezes, and just about all are facing pressure to limit hires. DoD, for example, has set a goal of reducing total civilian employment there by 10% in the medium-long term. Plus with the federal pay freeze, saving money by not filling open slots is one way to free up some money in the personnel account to at least give bonuses.

    The federal slowdown has lagged a couple of years behind the rest of the economy, as is typical, but PhD hiring by the military-industrial-intelligence complex is way, way down from 2008-2009 levels.

    Don't pass up an offer at an impolite department because you think you'll land a good job with the CIA or a defense contractor.

    Posted 2 years ago #

22. bianchi77
    .edu verified member

    Folks, no one has suggested passing up an offer from an impolite department. If they never contact you, ther is no offer to pass up.

    My point was merely to think about hos to interpret a major slight like not contacting you!AFTER a campus visit. That's not just impolite, it shows a lack of professionalism that might (might) reflect on other shortcomings in the dept.

    Posted 2 years ago #

23. flyoverprof
    .edu verified member

    And to clarify my post (because, really, I don't read these things very carefully), all flyouts get a personal phone call and/or email when the decision is made. I was only referring to the general applicant pool. Sorry that I missed this important detail. One thing to remember is that sometimes this takes awhile. We sometimes hold off if we are negotiating or considering going back to the pool.

    Posted 2 years ago #

24. Old Guy
    Unregistered

    Not calling could mean a lot of things. A lack of prof is at the bottom of that list. Greenhorns have a lot to learn! You should stop posting nonsense.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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