Mods, this was one of the most serious and helpful threads I've seen on PSJR recently, particularly for women, as we are usually not given candid advice about issues of personal appearance on job interviews from the professors in our departments (most of whom, in my case, are men, who are not qualified to give such advice). In fact, it was perhaps the most civil, if also controversial, discussions we've ever had on PSJR. Why was it deleted? Please bring it back.
Thanks.
don't care enough here, or anywhere else for that matter, about what you twats want.
I agree, please bring it back
OP, you can't be serious. Most women I know were offended by the trolling as it's another example of the litany of misogynistic bullsh*t on this forum. Good riddance. Thanks Mods.
Most women I know were offended by the trolling as it's another example of the litany of misogynistic bullsh*t on this forum. Good riddance. Thanks Mods.
So you showed that thread to a sample of your women friends and asked them how it made them feel?
STFU.
I'm a guy, didn't waste my time reading the entire thread, but it seemed remarkably helpful and civil for the first couple of pages at least.
And the fact that a lot of the misogynistic bullsh*t on that thread was coming from perhaps well-meaning older female professors doesn't make it any less bullsh*t. It was absolutely sending the wrong message to younger grad students and should have been deleted.
Patriarchy!!!
The problem with that thread (and why it was rightfully deleted) is that it gave the wrong impression that female faculty in polisci are ALL old-fashioned conservative prudes who completely judge younger female grad students by how much makeup, and the right brand of makeup, they put on their faces. What's harmful is spreading the idea that this is what should matter to female grad students on the job market. This is maybe the 100th most important thing grad students should be worrying about, if even that high. Better yet, nobody should be worrying about it.
It's safe to say that the few older female professors who actually care about that bullsh*t are in the severe minority in the field, and the thread was giving the harmful impression that those professors are actually gatekeepers in their departments, which I seriously hope is not the case.
From experience: helpful threads about real topics get axed; threads with trolls, stupid questions, or racist rants stay put. The idiotic IRB thread is still going strong.
^No, a HELPFUL thread about makeup would have been nice. A HELPFUL thread would have had responses stating that you should put zero thought into makeup, and that you should not wear any makeup on a job talk, because you should expect to be judged on your work, not on your appearance. The problem with the deleted thread was that a small cabal of older female professors was using it to spread the dangerous idea that it was important what brand of makeup young job candidates use. That simply isn't the goal that PSJR should be promoting, allowing a small set of conservative old-guard women to dictate the advice we give to younger job candidates.
Anyone impressionable enough to be convinced by that thread that all female faculty are judgmental prudes doesn't have enough brain cells to be getting a PhD. Using that argument as grounds for deleting the thread is just plain patronizing.
I certainly don't log onto this site to learn to be a better scholar (actually, I really hope no one does that). I log on to try to get some information about the status of various searches and occasionally to read insights relevant to the job process. Questions about appearance during the interview process absolutely fall into the latter category.
Any person (female or not) who thinks he/she isn't being judged to some extent or another on looks, whether at a job talk or in the grocery store, is crazy. Yes, your research is the most important thing for getting an academic job. And yes, if you have an impressive CV, it probably won't matter if you look like Alf. But your appearance sends signals, even if they are subtle. And in a process where you want every advantage, you would be silly not to consider those signals.
Bottom line: Makeup may be the 100th-most important thing to worry about in the job process, but I don't come to this site for the other 99. Deleting the thread was silly.
I closed that sucker like it was UCSB.
Seriously, it's very patronizing for the mods (whom I'm going to assume are male, at least the one who did the deletion) to delete a thread because they want to "protect" us from hearing advice from older female faculty. There were lots of more senior female profs giving advice on that thread that I don't necessarily agree with, and don't necessarily like hearing. But I'd rather be able to know that those kinds of people (who, frankly, disturb me because some of them probably are "gatekeepers" in the hiring process) are out there, rather than have the mods censor their every word.
The opposition to this thread was revelatory. The real feminists seemed to be the so-called "conservative prudes" (likely born in the 1980s, and not Sarah Palin wannabes) who recognize that they live in a world where men and women alike are judged based on their appearance. You'll judge a man if he shows up with three days of stubble, no tie, and a wrinkled suit, right? But clearly, the thread hit a nerve with women who put on a strong front but feel inadequate and cling to an anti-feminine version of "feminism" as a defense mechanism. The self-proclaimed strong, liberated ladies (likely born in the 1950s) doth protest too much. They probably make their 20 something female graduate students cower in submission if they ever talk about having a family, wearing their wedding ring, or, horror upon horrors, adopting part or all of their husband's surname. Isn't feminism supposed to be about choices?
the thread was giving the harmful impression that those professors are actually gatekeepers in their departments, which I seriously hope is not the case.
So you HOPE something is not true, therefore we should not discuss it?
It was absolutely sending the wrong message to younger grad students and should have been deleted.
Okay, so we should delete threads about learning methods that some of us think are not useful? And we should delete threads about publishing as a grad student, because I don't think that's important for my students?
The problem with the deleted thread was that a small cabal of older female professors was using it to spread the dangerous idea that it was important what brand of makeup young job candidates use. That simply isn't the goal that PSJR should be promoting, allowing a small set of conservative old-guard women to dictate the advice we give to younger job candidates.
Instead PSJR should be used to promote the inaccurate idea that appearance is irrelevant and thereby potentially harm young people's career prospects? Because that's the fairytale world YOU want to live in?
Listen people: the job market is tough, and this should be low on your priority list. But appearance does matter, and the thread was interesting partially because it discussed the fact that either too much or too little makeup might be a problem. I understand many of you would rather live in a world where we were all judged blindly on our merits--I would too. But it's not the world we live in, and putting your fingers in your ears is not going to change that.
This was not a trivial issue. A job interview is only partly about your research. What you wear (male or female) is also relevant. Should I wear khakis and a blazer? What do I do about my tattoos? Should I get a different haircut, or can I keep my Mohawk? All these things matter. So many of us live in cacoons in grad school, that it is helpful to find out what the expectations are in the wider world.
Lame to delete that thread. Seriously lame.
So, mods closed that thread, but not all the ones with racist or homophobic attacks? What the what?
I took the advice on that thread to heart. Who are these holier than thou women claiming we should all conform to their vision of the academy? Yes, I would prefer a world where I am not judged on my appearance, but I am not living in that world. I am living in this world. A world where I have an interview next week. I was very happy to get advice on how to dress and wear subtle amounts/types of makeup. Deleting the posts where someone's name was mentioned seems reasonable. Deleting the whole thread? No.
So it's okay to ask--and receive--advice on what to wear (e.g., no Dockers, etc.), but it's not okay to ask--and receive--advice on how to look (makeup, no makeup).
What's the difference? Aren't both about the image we project, how to "look the part," etc.?
I took the advice on that thread to heart. Who are these holier than thou women claiming we should all conform to their vision of the academy? Yes, I would prefer a world where I am not judged on my appearance, but I am not living in that world. I am living in this world. A world where I have an interview next week. I was very happy to get advice on how to dress and wear subtle amounts/types of makeup.
Well, maybe you shouldn't take that advice to heart (which was very bad advice). Nobody is telling you to conform to our vision of the academy, so no need for the hyperbole. If anything, the idiots on that thread telling you that it's more important to pick brand X over brand Y of makeup -- they're the ones trying to get you to conform to their vision of the academy. The point is that those idiots do not speak for all female professors in political science. Unfortunately, the thread was giving the false impression that they do, so the thread was doing much more harm than good. If you wanted to have a more informative discussion, try getting a representative sample of women in the profession first.
...for me, a discussion about Dockers doesn't make me start yanking on it like the posts above have. Something to do with pink makeup and even pinker vaginas; not sure though...
It doesn't surprise me that a bunch of old-guard, hard-line feminists would want to silence the younger female profs who have the street-smarts to recognize that appearances do matter in job talks.
What surprises me is that the PSJR moderators (who perhaps, then, includes one more of these old-guard feminists) would actually acquiesce and delete the entire thread in question. I had always assumed PSJR moderators were all male, but I guess that's quite a sexist assumption, especially in light of this thread deletion.
Not taking a side on the thread one way or another, but all the talk about one brand over another was about the quality of the brands and their ability to provide a natural and professional look. For Christ's sake, did none of you play with your sister's MAC makeup as a kid only to look like a neon troll and then compare that experience to the makeup that was put on you as a bridesmaid? Do what you want with regards to makeup, but if you are going to use it, do it correctly. Bad slutty makeup is worse than no makeup. Seriously, if you were a guy, it is not like you wear a purple velvet pimp suit to a job talk just because it was called a "suit."
I assumed all of the posts about actual makeup brands were written by grad students. They're the only ones who care about it. Nobody should be frightened by the discussion on the deleted thread - among actual faculty, makeup or no makeup is a complete non-issue. Do NOT worry about it for your interview, or at conferences, etc. Wear it or not as you feel comfortable.
ONLY MEN HAVE POSTED ON THIS THREAD
^ Seriously. I hate to think that grad students are reading this and second-guessing themselves still more based on something asinine like whether or not to wear make-up. As if the job market isn't hard enough!
^ should have been ^^