So is March going for tenure sometime soon?
Yale Theory
(680 posts) (2 voices)-
Posted 4 months ago #
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" Hold on: are you saying Penn State Press is top tier? Everyone know the top tier PT presses are PUP, OUP and Chicago. maybe Cambridge. Cornell, Penn State, Duke, etc are second-tier. how is this not a fact?"
No one ever said that. Only that you were insulting other scholars. Why do you feel like doing that?
If you think someone is fat, saying "well, it's a fact, she's fat," still makes you a tard for pointing it out to everyone.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Penn State is a top tier press for child ****
Posted 4 months ago # -
I don't know what "top tier" is supposed to mean exactly, but Penn St. is a very good press for political theory.
Posted 4 months ago # -
"I don't know what "top tier" is supposed to mean exactly, but Penn St. is a very good press for political theory."
Very good, but not among the best presses.
IMHO, Cambridge is the best followed by Princeton and Chicago in a tie for second. YMMV of course.
Posted 4 months ago # -
^^^^No one was being insulted.
It is widely accepted that CUP, PUP, OUP and Chicago are the top PT presses.
Penn Sate is good but it is a second-tier (or second-rated) press. You only go to PSUP if you dont get a contract with one of the Big 4.
This is not an insult. Would Harvard's dept, for example, like a PSUP book for someone up for untenured associate?
Just facts. No insults. In any case they are at Yale they are the winners of this game.
Posted 4 months ago # -
This is kina the point. If you're already at a place like Yale and you publish with a press like Penn State, everyone knows that you tried to get it published somewhere better and failed. It kind of marks you as being out of your depth. Whereas if you were at a second tier place people might assume that you chose to publish with a second tier press, because that's what tenure requirements/expectations dictate.
This is why people think that Ochoa will not get tenure at Yale. But she'll land somewhere good in any case.
Posted 4 months ago # -
OP here
^bingoPosted 4 months ago # -
Why would it be the case that if "you were at a second tier place people might assume that you chose to publish with a second tier press, because that's what tenure requirements/expectations dictate."?
why would you need to publish at a second-tier/rate press if you were at a 2nd tier dept? why not publish with the big 4?
Posted 4 months ago # -
^^^her work is interesting but not HYP level in terms of being ground-breaking. But you never know. She might get tenure.
Will she get untenured associate on her record?Posted 4 months ago # -
"why would you need to publish at a second-tier/rate press if you were at a 2nd tier dept? why not publish with the big 4?"
It's not that you affirmatively need to publish with the second tier. It's that you're in the kind of department where a second tier press is fine for tenure, and so you economized on time and effort by sending it to one to start with.
Posted 4 months ago # -
That's not true at all.
You said that one would "choose" to publish with a second-tier press.
thats wrong. No one should "choose" a second tier press over a first tier one.it is also wrong to say that second-tier depts expect or are ok with a 2nd tier press.
Increasingly, non-top 10 depts expect TOP 4 press books for tenure.
if you "choose" a second tier press, you are risking not getting tenure at a non top 10 dept. (in PT).Posted 4 months ago # -
What if someone doesnt get 'untenured associate' status at Yale?
what then?
or alternatively, what happens if one gets 'untenured associate'?
when do u then go up for tenure?Posted 4 months ago # -
^^^^Since when is "pathbreaking" work a requirement for getting tenure at HYP? Look at Nelson and Garsten...
Posted 4 months ago # -
so What if someone doesnt get 'untenured associate' status at Yale?
what then?
or alternatively, what happens if one gets 'untenured associate'?
when do u then go up for tenure?Posted 4 months ago # -
". . . Whereas if you were at a second tier place people might assume that you chose to publish with a second tier press, because that's what tenure requirements/expectations dictate."
The reason people at the second (or third or below, however these things are measured) tend to publish with second tier presses is because the first tier often won't give them the time of day. For someone teaching at a multi-directional state institution, for example, Cambridge or Princeton won't give them the time of day. For them to publish with a press as good as Penn State, that's a major achievement and a statement about their potential to rise higher in the hierarchy.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Everybody gets untenured associate, or as they call it "associate on term." It is just an extension of your employment that doesn't obligate Yale to keep you (tenure) but is supposed to show you are tenurable elsewhere when you inevitably move during your 7-8th year.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Thanks
I finally got an answerbut I thought some people don't get ''untenured associate'' at HU or Yale.
Some people freak out about not getting that.If everyone gets untenured associate, how does Yale signal to someone if they will be able to proceed towards real tenure or its best that they start looking elsewhere?
Posted 4 months ago # -
^^So you are saying that Mantena and March will 'inevitably' move elsewhere?
they have stellar records. Ochoa's record is good but not stellar. I don't understand how 'everyone' gets untenured associate.Posted 4 months ago # -
I also don't understand the Yale system
Posted 4 months ago # -
^Fortunately, you don't have to, and you never will!
Posted 4 months ago # -
No, not everybody gets untenured associate, but most do. Tenure is the real hurdle.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Hey, I'm not fat!
Posted 4 months ago # -
So when do they go up for Tenure after having received untenured associate?
Posted 4 months ago # -
Educate me: What makes Mantena's record so good? She has a top press book and a mmere 8 articles, of whicy only one in APSR is a standout, the rest mainly being in edited books. How does that differ from all kinds of folk who get tenure at 2nd and 3rd tier places. I haven't read her work and have don't know what she has in the pipeline and maybe you have and you're saying its great. But from a bean counting perspective, the record is OK, not stellar.
Posted 4 months ago # -
You're probably not a theorist.
Any theorist with a top 4 press book (OUP/CUP/PUP/Chicago), IAS fellowship, and a major journal article (APSR, PT, HPT, etc) is stellar.
Very few people have all 3 elements.
Posted 4 months ago # -
ie, In PT, number of articles doesn't matter as much as quality, especially quality of your book or books. It is a book-driven subfield, not like other subfields.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Also, in PT, someone with 3-4 APSR's is impressive but not as much as someone with a top press book and a couple good articles.
The number of people with a HYP PhD, top press book, IAS, and a top article is probably less than 10 among younger folks (and still few among more senior people).
Posted 4 months ago # -
This doesn't mean that Mantena's work is better overall than people at 2nd/3rd tier places whose records are comparable.
it just means she was lucky to get a top job. There are few PT jobs every year, and it is a major bit of accomplishment and luck to get any job, especially at an R1.
Her record is as good as it can be in PT for an assistant prof. There may be 3-4 people in other lower-ranked schools who have better records, but she just happened to get a top Ivy job by the luck of the draw (gender and race helps a bit too, as well as working on mainstream, ''normal'' topics).Posted 4 months ago # -
Sorry, I still don't get it. There are lots of theorists with a top 4 book and (more than her one) article, and the IAS Fellowship doesn't seem that relevant. Its a decent record but it doesn't distinguish her from people at Ohio State, TAMU, NYU, USC, etc, etc.
Posted 4 months ago #